(SUBJECTIVE POST BY DEFINITION!)
Just WHAT is Religion?
Is it not a belief in that which we cannot see?
Or is that Faith?
As an observer, I often find it amusing (in the case of the Mohammed Teddy Bear) or annoying.
The latter being exhibited by a guy I met in our local pub last night. He and his companion were "Christians" in the broader sense of the word. They called themselves "Pentecostals" and the (older) guy was very interested in me (as a scientist) at first.
However, once I started to ask questions about the Bible he was unable to answer he lost interest. I asked him a few questions, and twice he went off at a tangent trying to answer them with quotes from the Bible. He failed, as I had to remind, twice, to "please answer the question".
I had gotten to thinking that to have faith is commendable, but to blindly believe is just folly, when he proved it with his answer to this one: "If God created the Heavens and the Earth and all that therein is in only six days, why has Jesus been in Heaven for over 2000 years "preparing a place" for the Christians to go to?"
His answer was -
"The Patience of the Lord".
I was dumbfounded.
In the words of Zen Buddhism, he "unasked" the question .
How on earth do they think they can get anyone to "Come to Jesus" (the only words spoken by his timid companion) with such rhetoric?
So I think I was justifiably annoyed at the attitude. Just as "killing all infidels" in Islam is slightly annoying too. The difference being only a matter of degree.
Saturday, December 08, 2007
Losing My Religion
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15 comments:
I think I can relate well to what you are saying in this post. I guess I would call myself a "quiet" Pentacostal, formerly of the Baptist faith more or less by birth. If your Pub-licans say they are Christians, I will not argue with them. It is not worth the time or trouble. However, I think your question is dependent on what answer you are willing to accept. It is a good, valid question, but truly of no consequence to one's faith, in my opinion. Still, allow me to reply and ask you if you find my reply acceptable.
"Since no man knows the end, but the Father", which I think is close to an exact quote, then when Jesus says He goes to "prepare a place" for Christians, Jesus is saying several things, probably more than I am wise enough to list. 1. This is what one might say when one prepares to receive someone as a guest or additional household member. 2. Jesus is giving what His main task will be upon leaving mankind. 3. Jesus is delivering a comforting message, along with a message of hope connected to His departure. Yet, Jesus rightly does not point to any specific or general date for his return, for only the "Father" knows the date. (How is my reply?)
Although I would not exclude your Christian Pub-lican's answer as being entirely wrong, it may have sounded a bit self-serving. Plus, who are you to say it shouldn't take 2000 years or more to prepare the place? That question gets us to the point of "Time", which begs the question of what is 2000 years compared to eternity? I think eternity might be a different measure of time or even timeless, but that is skipping into other fields your question and your post do not delve into. So, that was not a question for you.
When it comes to God, as best I can tell, you must take God on faith. Logic fails before God. What you might call blind belief, might not be blind belief to that person. It may be faith based on spiritual communication from God. Yes, most so-called believers are probably believers in blind faith, which is not God at all. I am convinced God does not mind one who questions God based on a need for understanding God or God's teachings better. Note: I said questioning God, not other people. People are always fair game for questioning. The wisest people I know are those who are willing to reply, "I do not know the answer to that." Which also would have been a fair answer to your question. I have stumped a many a preacher and religious teachers. If not many, then enough to know even they do not have all the answers.
As for Mohammed the Teddy Bear, if the children of Islam would name a Teddy Bear after the Prophet and the leaders of the faith declare it worthy of grave punishment for a school teacher to allow this, then are not these same leaders admitting they have failed as teachers of their own faith when their own children commit what seems to be a sacrilige to their faith, though they are taught the ways of Islam from birth? What punishment is grave enough for these leaders of Islam for their failure in teaching their faith? Wiser minds would have handled this prudently, as is often the case in dealing with children. Think of all the men named Mohammed who do not live up to the name! Maybe that Teddy Bear is better than they are.
:-) Thank you. Both subjects mean something to me. Obviously, I enjoyed your post and I do not think I disagree with you. I hope your Pub-licans find their way. Sorry if I said more than you said. You know me.
David, that is your right and I commend your honesty. I like and enjoy your posts. I believe in God and must take that on faith. I can no more offer you proof you will accept that God exists, than in Logic you can prove something, such as God, does not exist. I am not good at stating logic, but have heard this somewhere.
Perhaps only God can teach a person to have faith in God. People who try to bring others to salvation, when genuine, are only tools of God. Currently, no tool can point to its maker and prove humans exist, although computers or computer-like devices may one day be capable of this with humans. I can't even tell you why God chooses to have humans as tools in this matter.
We take many things on faith, whether religious or not. Logically then, faith comes of a necessity in life. We build upon these faiths. Science, Logic, and religion at their root are based on faith. I am sure this is true of other things as well. We develop forms of skepticism and acceptance in regard to these faiths. Religion may be the highest and hardest of these when it comes to developing proper skepticism and acceptance.
I feel a true skeptic might get to Heaven based on accepting God if God reveals Himself to that skeptic, while a religious man in his own smugness over knowing God exists might not because this flaw might reveal him as unworthy of Heaven. Still, I am not God, so this is an example of how two such people can differ in God's eyes, based on my understanding of faith in God.
This is not meant to be personal, but simply stating, I can see your point(s). At the same time, I wish to have my faith safe-guarded, for more and more, I am finding both the religious and non-religious are attacking the idea of people having faith. The religious are trying to dictate faith, be it Christian or Islamic faith dictating, while skeptics and atheists, too often, label the religious among us to be unlearned and unwise for having faith, thus trying to dictate what can pass for an intelligent and learned person.
If this topic and the thoughts expressed by each of us generates more comments and thoughtfulness, it will have done an important duty in this world. One could even laughingly say, "Look what these pub-licans have wrought in encountering Aki!" Or "Look what God has wrought among us." But, it is your right to believe otherwise.
Poor Adam, with "Original Sin" and the Garden of Eden gone, he has had to resort to cheap gimmicky sales tricks to earn his daily bread. Sad.
Sorry, kind of used your comments to reply to some thoughts expressed by an atheist with a PhD and a worldwide audience, since he is also an author of many books. David, thanks to people like that, nice, intelligently skeptical people like yourself, may one day live to see religious people under attack and losing their jobs for their beliefs. That is just my opinion. I only hoped our comments might lead passersby to feel the need to comment on the blog and comments here. I think it is a great subject, but subjective by definition, as Aki says. I am trying hard to hold my literary tongue, but do wish to apologize to you. Love your points though. Now, where is the rest of the world?
ahhhhh...that's another issues...here i want to correct your perception about ISLAM..ISLAM is a free religion...it's do not force anyone to choose ISLAM as their religion..it's a pure religion...i think when you're scientist you can see the clue of mighty of god but you're not..in case killing all infidel,ISLAM just battle with cruel ruler...look at palestine...they're attending without any mercy...it is justifiable?????? I recommend you to investigate about the truth of AL-QURAN
Few things are more fascinating or maddening then Theology. Is it that we confuse faith with religion?
The need for people to frame their lives by some philosophy is the corner stone for intellectual pursuit and artistic creation. These are good things. But it gets very complicated when this honest yearning for some cosmic understanding in systemized and lost in arcane rituals. This can lead to very bad things. War and racism come to mind.
But isn't it possible that under all the cultural masks that seem to pit the various religions at odds exist the same core beliefs? Possibly even the same kernels of truth? I would even volunteer that at the heart of science, which is the new religion of choice, the same basic mantra exists: The desire to understand the physical world and our place within it. We now contemplate things such as: super symmetry, the string theory, dark energy; but aren’t these theories that can’t as of yet be proven? So in essence you have to have faith in them.
So where does that leave us? Is there a God? What is the nature of existence? I have no bloody idea. But it's a cool question.
Zombie....follow this link right here in this blog for enlightenment.....
Post is entitled "Holmes, I have a sore neck"
http://gnabgib.blogspot.com/2007/02/holmes-i-have-sore-neck.html
David...yes i'm not force you to join my religion..for your information,in Islam,human is all same..there is no rich,poor or else...they're all same...only your behaviour is the matter...in ISLAM,your heart is the main organ...if it's kind,your behaviour will be kind...if not...understand yourself...we believe our god is one no another...don't you think if there is a lot of god how they can manage this world?the god we are calling 'ALLAH' is the most powerful...nothing can argue with that.. one more thing..don't you realise that other religion can make their god by using their handworking and then pray the god that they create by ownself?that's impossible...our almighty god do not judge people with their physical but our god look the kindness of our heart...today,members of ISLAM is attending without any mercy...is this justifiable?????????????
THINK AGAIN
Aki, in reference to Holmes, I have a sore neck....
I’ve always suspected there were universal building blocks that could lead us to unlock the age-old questions; I just didn’t know they would be DNA cloning enzymes. It figures it wouldn’t be something poetic like love or truth. Of course, it’s possible I might be selling the intrinsic beauty of enzymes short.
I’ve read similar theories, including some that suggest that the history of creation is stored within all things. The thinking is if there is molecular memory, and we are all truly children of stardust, then at some primal level we seek to validate what we already know.
Here in the U.S. there has been a push by conservatives to teach ‘intelligent design’ in school next to Darwinism. Although I’m suspicious of their reasons, I’ve always felt we should never as a society be afraid to least discuss a theory. Truth can always withstand tough debate.
But then again, what about truth? If space and time are just a conditions of gravity, then what would that say about the nature of a creator? Or more importantly, on our ability to even contemplate on the nature of a creator? I think the theory is that different bubbles of space/time coexist in a prim-evil void. But the physical laws of time and space are unique to each membrane. So would the nature of God then change also? Or is god just the name we give to that state of physical law? Then isn’t Darwinism in a way intelligent desesign? And what if time does branch infinitely like tree roots? Would then aspects of god be split also? And what would that say about destiny and God’s will?
Again, I have no idea. I’m just a curious George by nature.
Aki, you said I could follow the link to find enlightenment. And yes it did open my mind to new ideas and expanded my knowledge base. But I’ m an odd creature that actually feels stupider when I realize there is more to know. You never know how lost you are till you get an idea how big the forest is.
Thanks for helping me to better see the forest through the enzymes.
On Jesus going to prepare a place... here is my take on it:
1 - There is a small logical fallacy in saying that it has taken Him 2000 to prepare the place. For people who died a couple of days after Jesus died and went to Heaven, it had only taken Jesus a couple of days to prepare the place. For People like St. Paul, may be it took a couple of decades. For you, may be it took 2000+ years since you were born almost that long after Jesus died. This would bring up a couple of questions: When did your time start to count? Was it when Jesus said those words, or was it after you were born?
This first take, addresses your question, when you assume that Jesus is still preparing a place for us, physically, each day for each person, and that once He is done preparing, we would know and/or He would return.
He may be done preparing the place, but that does not mean we have to know or that He has to prove that He is done.
Second take. Could it be that He was speaking of spiritual thing? I think there was a time when the Sadducees asked Jesus about a wife whose Husbands kept dying on him and what would happen when they were in Heaven whose wife would she be. In reply, Jesus mentioned that there is no need for Marriage in Heaven. Prior to this, He had mentioned that the Sadducees erred in not knowing the scriptures nor the Power of God. I think that is the clue. Some (if not all,) of the things in the Bible require special understanding of both the scripture itself, AND the power of God, to make sense of them.
That's all for now.
Rings of Saturn? Tom Cruise-- is that you?
Here some poems for those who are don't have a religion.....
"How great the wonders of the heavens
And the timeless beauty of the night
How great -- then how great the
creator?
And its star like priceless jewels
far beyond the reach of kings
Bow down for the shepard guiding him
home
But how many eyes are closed to the
wonder of this night?
Like pearls, hidden, deep beneath a
dark stream of desires
But like dreams vanish with the call
to prayer
And the dawn extinguishes night
here too are signs
God is the light
God is the light
How great the beauty of the Earth and
the creatures who dwell on her
How great -- then how great the
creator?
As it's mountains pierce the clouds
hight about the lives of men
Weeping rivers for thousands of years
But how many hearts are closed to the
wonders of this sight?
Like birds in a cage, asleep with
closed wings
But as work stops with the call to
prayer
And the birds recite - here too are
signs
God is the light
God is the light
How great the works of man and the
things he makes
How great -- then how great the
creator?
Though he strives to reach the
heavens he can barely survive
The wars of the world he lives in
Yet how many times he's tried,
himself to immortalize?
Like his parents before him in the
garden of Eden
But like the sun sets with the call
to prayer
And surrenders to the night here too
are signs
God is the light everlasting..
God is the light everlasting..
God is the light everlasting..
God is the light everlasting.."
The lyrics above also a song singing by Yusof Islam(former a rock singer who attracted in Islam)titled God Is The Light..
Think Again...
Hmmm... Suddenly I have found my Poet's Corner ("POET'S CORNER!!!")
There’s nothing like Cat Steven lyrics to stop controversy and calm everyone down. As for the truth of God? Here it is. God is an all powerful energy that surrounds us, it binds us, it…wait, I think that’s the force, isn’t it? Never mind. I still have no idea. Have you noticed there is a strong sense of the creator and faith within the Star Wars mythos, but the Star Trek future seems to promise a godless society?
I will say at the top rather than the bottom so readers may discontinue if they so wish, I am an Atheist. I love many of the ideas I have read in Buddhism too. Religion is a tool. It is something that you may choose to do - Heaven, Hell? What grand stories to control the masses. I will not disrespect a person for their religion ever, unless they were to attempt to force theirs upon me. Religion is very personal and that is unfair.
I meditate every day and I have seen that religion is an insult to the dignity of man. (Some of us) should know better now that we have grown more conscious of ourselves and how we got here. Just because I have seen this and hereafter feel liberated it does not, of course, mean that others need to see it or should for that matter.
I feel religion is something we really do not need to explain things anymore, that at least where I am from, people should be able to have their independent thought encouraged, rather than discouraged, should be taught the truth about evolution and should be taught to doubt what they are told if they see good reason.
In response to "losing your religion" - Call it what you will, from my perspective you will never lose what is holy to you because you are that holy thing, the voice inside your head - that is you.
Always listen to yourself and trust what you hear. No faith can give you more.
The most important thing you can believe Aki, is something useful!
'Losing my Religion' is a song by REM in the UK. It is very famous there.
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